Talk:Richard Nixon
HT's not easy on old Nixon here, is he? Turtle Fan 22:09, December 1, 2009 (UTC) :He is not, which is understandable on several levels. Still, I'd like to see HT use him once as more than just a punch line, for variety's sake. He doesn't have to be a hero, just prominent in the story. TR 22:42, December 1, 2009 (UTC) ::Yeah, I don't mind Nixon being portrayed less than glowingly, but HT seems to think he can use him as a running gag and have done with it. He's not someone to be dismissed as having no substance, here. ::By the way, the scene in . . . I think it was SC but it might have been DtE . . . where Liu Han goes all Soong May-Ling on Congress asking for help fighting the Lizards? And Nixon jumps up and thunders "No, we'll never support Chinese communists! Not ever, not against anyone!!"? That's a bit asinine. He did get all buddy-buddy with Zhou, did he not? He was willing to support the CCP if it helped them both resist a greater common threat. Turtle Fan 23:10, December 1, 2009 (UTC) :::True, but that was a somewhat more mature Nixon, after he'd spent years building up his anti-commie street cred, and could afford to be pragmatic. The Nixon of WW is probably a little stunted in his worldview (rather like everyone else in that world). TR 23:20, December 1, 2009 (UTC) ::::True as well, but communism isn't the big enemy there. All hawkish eyes are focused on the Race, and most American characters seem aware that, were the Lizards to disappear, the Nazis would then become Public Enemy Number One. While all purely human international relations were more or less frozen in place by the need for everyone to pull together to keep the Lizards in check, most people seemed to agree on how likely the various possible wars among the human Big Three would be if given their druthers, and USA v USSR was a distant third. And all other communist parties are busy resisting the Lizards in their colonies, or maybe the Nazis in conquered German provinces, or maybe, maybe the Japanese, if the map is right and they got to hold onto Vietnam and Cambodia for some asinine reason. So you wouldn't have to go around screaming "Better dead than red!" to prove your patriotism. If you were going to define your jingoism as Not Society X, it would be Lizard society. ::::Hmm, I'd like to see McCarthy demand people prove they're not spacefaring reptiles. More likely it would take the form of racism against ethnic groups which in their homelands are proving docile colonial subjects. Though the most notorious collaborators of all, the Jews, seemed to be fairing as well in the US as they were in any human-run territory. The Hot War? Nixon could play a role in The Hot War. Relating back to our broad, utterly baseless speculation about the 1952 election, Ike could still win, but with the nature of the war, perhaps he has his heart attack a couple of years early, and a fatal one at that. Alternatively, if Taft wins, Nixon is still a prime choice for VP, for mostly the same reasons Ike picked him in OTL--he had ties to both wings of the GOP, his anti-communist record, his youth, his tenacity, etc. Then if Taft dies on schedule, Nixon is POTUS. The reason I like the idea of Nixon's early presidency has far more to do with HT's tropes than anything. At age 40, Nixon would be the youngest person to become president (beating out both TR an JFK however you slice it), he would also be the 35th president, rather than JFK. He would also be in the position to first escalate and then end an unpopular war in Southeast Asia. Those are just the sorts of tweedoms that HT loves to incorporate into his works. Anyway, wish fulfillment, and all that. Nixon will probably be another punch line, if he appears at all. TR (talk) 17:00, November 1, 2014 (UTC) Hindsight "Nixon was Vice President in 1953, so Gordian disguised him as "President Cavanaugh", after a corrupt politician of the same name from an episode of Bewitched." User:BarryHammock added the bolded part to the Nixon article in the Hindsight sub-section. I Googled this and did find in IMDB that there was such an episode titled "Remember the Main" with Cavanaugh as a corrupt city councilor. What I'm wondering is if Turtledove ever made a comment to the effect that was the source of the name or if its speculation on the part of BarryHammock. I don't think it was commented on within the story. In any case, I think it can stand even if it is speculative. ML4E (talk) 18:52, March 22, 2015 (UTC) :I don't recall such a reference in the text. I'm not sure why Michelle would make the extra effort to explain to Lundquist and McGregor that she took the name from a show that hadn't been created yet. But since I don't have access to the story at the moment, I'm inclined to give the line the benefit of the doubt until we address the issue conclusively. TR (talk) 22:09, March 22, 2015 (UTC) ::For what it's worth, I was able to peak inside 3XT online, and there was nothing about Bewitched or even a description of the show. I'd deleted that reference a while ago, but I'm glad I did so correctly. TR (talk) 19:38, March 9, 2016 (UTC) Nixon as Actor? Really? Laugh-In cameo doesn't count. What else? ML4E (talk) 17:21, November 3, 2015 (UTC) :Nothing I can find, unless he was in a school play when he was little or something. Turtle Fan (talk) 19:02, November 3, 2015 (UTC) ::In which case, nearly everyone should be in "Actors". TR (talk) 19:05, November 3, 2015 (UTC) Yes, that's why I raised it. Unless Jonathan has something more, I don't think it is a valid category for Nixon to be in. ML4E (talk) 19:06, November 3, 2015 (UTC) Apparently he was in some kind of official play, noted in a lot of his bios.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 04:24, November 4, 2015 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Tower_(play) :It looks like a community theater group. The only significance for Nixon is that he met his future wife there. I don't think that should classify him as an actor, though. ML4E (talk) 20:43, November 4, 2015 (UTC) Nixon in "The Weather's Fine" I believe this new addition is slight enough to move to "Hist. Figs." ML4E (talk) 21:11, September 15, 2016 (UTC) :He's the current President for at least part of the story, so the head of state rule keeps him.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:31, September 15, 2016 (UTC) ::Except given the nature of the story, I don't think it's correct to say he is the "current" president. TR (talk) 04:26, September 16, 2016 (UTC) :::Hmm, there is that. Turtle Fan (talk) 04:37, September 16, 2016 (UTC) I have located the reference in my PB copy: "...Nixon so stoned his face is dribbling out between his fingers ..." This is one clause in a sentence also referencing the keep on truckin poster, Peter Fonda on a motorcycle, a reference to the Easy Rider movie, and Mickey and Minnie Mouse doing something obscene. The next paragraph has Tom Crowell recognizing the H.P. Lovecraft song playing at Barefoot Sounds. This is a more extensive reference than the one for Nixon and yet Jonathan wants to keep the Nixon here but shift Lovecraft to "Lit. Allusions". It seems to me that the so called "head of state rule" is being applied too rigorously even if we assume he was President at the time. ML4E (talk) 15:25, September 16, 2016 (UTC) :I agree. When I tried to fashion the contemporary political leaders rule, I was acknowledging the fact that political leaders tend to have an inherent impact on the plot of a story, period pieces especially, even if that leader doesn't actually appear on stage. The problem with applying this rule to TWF is that, despite the "timey-wimey" stuff, the reality is that the story is set in the 1980s. The characters know this. They aren't literally going back in time, it's that little pockets of time are being moved to the present. Nixon isn't POTUS by dint of the fact that our hero goes into a room set to the 1960s. It's just that a poster of Nixon "exists" in this room. TR (talk) 23:00, September 16, 2016 (UTC) < bump > So what should we do? I still think WF should be moved to "Hist. Ref." ML4E (talk) 23:18, September 19, 2016 (UTC) :I see the weather changes as being actual time travel, so part of the story is taking place during Nixon's presidency. It's ambiguous enough that this could work.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 23:21, September 19, 2016 (UTC) ::The characters don't see it that way. They know it's not actual time travel. TR (talk) 00:12, September 20, 2016 (UTC) :::1) I too have said it before, it is not time travel. The year-conditioner causes things within its area of effect to become those of that time period (e.g. calculators to slide rules) with mind-set changing to that period too but the characters are aware that it is still 1980s. :::2) It could work but I am saying it is so slight that it shouldn't. :::3) Even assuming your point that it is taking place during Nixon's presidency, you have not address my and TR's point about too rigid application of the "head of state rule". ML4E (talk) 00:19, September 20, 2016 (UTC) < bump > So we are agreed that the TWF reference should be moved the "Hist. Figs."? Turtle Fan, you haven't said anything on the matter. ML4E (talk) 16:53, October 1, 2016 (UTC) :Yeah, I suppose it should. Turtle Fan (talk) 05:09, October 2, 2016 (UTC) Nixon in The Hot War Since the first chapter has been published in the TPB edition of Fallout, and since the first 13 pages of Armistice are available at the Penguin-Random House web site, this isn't a spoiler. I'm pretty sure we did the same thing with TWPE. TR (talk) 18:43, June 18, 2017 (UTC) :Yeah, I don't think it's objectionable. Turtle Fan (talk) 02:54, June 19, 2017 (UTC) Hindsight template The political office isn't showing up, for the cat VPOTUSATL.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:38, November 6, 2017 (UTC) Jefferson Template The cat POTUSATL doesn't show up in his Jefferson template either.JonathanMarkoff (talk) 21:40, November 6, 2017 (UTC) :Because I haven't added political office options to either. TR (talk) 21:44, November 6, 2017 (UTC) Worldwar He is listed as congressman in the paragraph, but Senator in the template box. Which is it?JonathanMarkoff (talk) 08:46, February 11, 2018 (UTC) :Corrected. TR (talk) 16:46, February 11, 2018 (UTC)